yes, some people seem to practice ignorance like it’s a religion. they actually work really hard at it. scary.
MJ my Bruh…. I read your post “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” and your dialogue with Mahndisa on her blog page as well as your comments on “Queering me”. I became so troubled that I had to take the time to make this comment.
You are certainly correct in the various points that you made to her. NO DOUBT! But let me pose a few questions to you: Would we rather be right than humane? Do we care more about our politics than about other people and their feelings? Does a quote on someone’s blog page that we don’t like or disagree with give us license to catergorize and therefore demonize them? If someone refuses to accept our opinions and the questions the credibility of our sources, does that then gives us the “green light” to condemn them to our intellectual pergatory and call them names? (As an aside… is it easier to call someone names when we constanly refer to ourselves by a derogatory term?) And most importantly, where and from whom do we learn such behaviours? Whom are we emulating?
I have read various posts on Mahndisa’a blog page before and although I do find her so-called
“conservative” in some of her beliefs, and may not agree with some of her views, she like most of us, cannot be defined simply as being any one thing. Regardless of that, one can only offer through sincere conversation, an opportunity, an invitation, to look at things differently and offer sources to facilitate that process. If they refuse, for whatever reason, it is their loss NOT yours! Pride makes us want them to gladly accept our knowledge. Pride makes them reject it. It’s a process my Bruh… and not everyone we come in contact with are ready or up to that challenge.
In saying all this… What troubles me most is what you once stated in a previous post in regards to the comments made by Sailorman in your discussion on Royal Rife’s cancer cure. You stated that: “there probably is some truth in Sailor-dude’s words but the delivery is like curdled milk.” As I stated above, you are “right” about the various points you made, but the delivery… especially when it comes to name calling on your part. I have always believed that in a discussion, when one resorts to name calling, that person does not have the intellectual ability to argue their point civilly. But that is NOT the case with you. Furthermore you are better than that. B-E-T-T-E-R! Not because of your above average intellectual ability. But because of your capacity for self-reflection and openness to personal growth. None of us are perfect but I saw the strength and sincerity of your essence in your apology to “Racial Realist” (Fri June 07 2006), after your ferocious discussion with her… although in that discussion, I believed your position was the “right” one. (Go back and read that post… it’s one of the “real-est” things I ever read). So I am confident that upon further reflection, you will “do the right thing”. Not because you were right in your comments, but because you are a better and more humane person than your comments portray. I believe in your capacity to change course and take the “high road”… this is NOT rhetoric but fact… because I have seen it.
On another note. It is no coincidence that it appears all this started on “Queering me” blog page (unless there is some previous history of intellectual conflict that you have had with Mahndisa that I am not aware of). I am also not surprised that Holly jumped into the mix to add to the discord. Look Bruh, you know that I am of the opinion that the appointed new overseers of the “Plantation of Approved Dissent” are gay white females. They have been set over us “natives” aka “negroes”, to define and confine what our opinions and beliefs shoud be in regards to struggling/fighting against the “system”. Where does a gay white woman “get off”, to feel that she can condemn what a person of African descent, such as Mahndisa, believes in regards to other Black people!? The Skyscraper’s and the Hollys of this world are more dangerous than the “poorboys” and Sailorman. They come as angels of light into our Afrosphere, but the end product of their visit is more discord and division among “us”…. case in point… you and Mahndisa… We need to welcome those, regardless of color, race, gender, sexual orientaion, religion, culture etc… who facilitate our unity as a people, encourage us to find common ground… and not lie in wait for any opportunity to take advantage of our differences to “divide and conquer” us. Let’s celebrate our similarities (as you asked in a previous post)… and learn and grow from our differences. Your post to Mahndisa entailed a quote from MLK… I leave you with two quotes from Christ:
“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth”; “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God”.
Asa: I take full responsibility for what I said. Nobody made me say it, influenced me to say it or the way I said it. I don’t know if I was humane, but I certainly believe I am human.
I think its unfair to say those things about Holly or Skyscraper. I don’t think its true that gays/lesbians are the arbiters or overseers of anyone but themselves. They aren’t my overseer.
I just don’t have the patience right now for those people who willfully blind themselves. I normally don’t fuck with them at all because it is a complete and utter waste of time. But because of where I am right now, I chose to get embroiled.
Maybe when I reflect I will agree with you that I was too crude. Probably was. But I ain’t ready to go there quite yet. I still respect your thought and appreciate your faith. I am a work in progress for sure.
So, Clampett sent me over to M.’s blog, but I didn’t find the thread. Is it still there?
Max, I ultimatum-ed THAT woman after she treated I and another guest in an absurd, rude and most arrogant fashion….she did so without provocation, I might add, so don’t feel singled out.
I think you’ll get a chuckle or two out her comments section on the post ‘protectionists be damned’
……anyone else find it ironic that this womans name, or cybername is Manhdisa? Yet on her blog and various comments she has left she preaches this almost colorblind “black and african labels are too restrictive……. we are all colored and equal human beings” nonsense……yet her name is Mahndisa? hmmm
Asa….. I was with you, until you went on to talk about how gay white women are the newly appointed overseers. How so? I’ve read skyscrapers response between Max and Mahndisa…. and what would you have preferred she said in order to “facilitate our unity as a people” in response to Mahndisa cracked out diatribe that essentially excuses white supremacy?
I agree that whites (but not particularly gay whites, the gay part I dont get) have to tread carefully in discussions between Blacks when it comes to these issues….. but that doesn’t mean they aren’t entitled to an opinion……especially when its their blog……….especially when they are right
Well, Saucy, the other problem is that Skyscraper ain’t white so that dog won’t hunt either.
Certainly, I would agree that there is a way in which “”certain”” gay leaders, if you will, seek to use our experience as black people to enhance their position while diminishing ours. However, I do believe that injustice is injustice. I’m not down for the oppression of ANYBODY for any reason.
And Saucy, you’re exactly right; this women needed to be confronted about her white supremacist apologist stance. If we don’t, who will.
But I admit, I could have expressed myself with more polish and less venom; but sometimes you got to drop tough love on hard headed people.
“This women needed to be confronted about her white supremacist apologist stance. If we don’t, who will.”
Good point. And Clampett’s ‘ultimatum’ is worth reading for the humor, as well as the ideas.
I didn’t even consider the fact that skyscraper might not even actually be white. Kinda invalidates Asa’s argument.
And yes, homosexuals wanting to link arms with people of color as if to say “yes I too know what oppression is brother” is foul beyond foul. It’s just as ignorant as white woman wanting to link arms and claim that we are all fighting the same fight….. when clearly we aren’t. Your fight doesn’t look like my fight. However, that doesnt mean you don’t know what its like to be bullied. Personally, I’m down for anyone denouncing white supremacy.
And while name calling and finger pointing is not always the most constructive use of ones time, every argument is not necessarily a “opportunity” to listen to each other, compromise, and sing Koom ba yah. There is light and justice in calling a spade a spade and sometimes you have to shoot the fox in the chicken coup.
…..we are too damn PC in this country anyway.
Saucy: Yeah, PC ain’t shit. Sometimes I feel like cursing a muthafucka out, calling a spade and alldat. I ain’t trying to be perfect, just the truth as I see in the moment.
I don’t like looking bad or making people look bad (though sometimes…Yeah, I do) or saying idiotic shit, but that’s not beyond me. I get spiritually constipated sometimes. This was my verbal colonic.
MJ…. Ooops… my bad. I had misread a point Skyscraper had made in her discussion with Mahndisa and I came to the wrong conclusion that she was white… My apologies to her…. (although I still hold to my position concerning the gay white females being the “new overseers”)… nuff said…. moving on…
MJ… I forgot to add that like you I am also a work in progress… probably more so…
Asa: I need you to support that argument. I need to understand how you’ve reached that conclusion, what you’ve observed to come to that belief.
Thanks, fellow worker!
Asa, some people believe that a man is measured by the magnitude of his enemy. If you want to measure up, I suggest that you find an enemy other than me.
Max, thanks for having my back. I entered the fray because I often oppose neocons.
I’ve been spending some time at another site. It’s a feminist site. The women there believe that patriarchy is the primary oppression. They believe that if you eliminate patriarchy, all other oppressions will wilt. So, yeah, they give racism a second-class status. I didn’t last long at that site. They lined up to hate me, to accuse me of subversion, as Asa has done, for arguing that patriarchy isn’t the primary oppression.
Asa, you write about me as if you had a clue about me. I’ve come to embody (disembody, actually, since you’ve never met me) something for you. We would seem to be bound by aspirations of emulating the Christ. I shared once that I’ve lived a lean life. Still do. This isn’t by chance, but by choice. I could make oodles of money, but I choose simplicity and service instead. It’s ironic that you sarcastically deemed me an “angel of light” when many people have truly labeled me an angel based upon the life I’ve led, about which you know next to nothing. I see you cite the Christ, but I don’t feel any love or openness from you. I suspect, if you met me, that you’d love me, for most people do, unless, of course, you hate queer people in the course of your life.
Again, I’m an odd enemy for you. And yes, yes, yes, you deem me dangerous because you frame me as covert, but what are your data?
I sided with Max against Mandhisa partly because of my affection for Max and partly because of my inveterate opposition to neocons. That can’t be your data for distrusting me, for your distrust of me predates that thread. So, what are your data?
Holly: do you think there is a primary oppression?
A case could be made that racism is the primary oppression through slavery, colonialization, inequity in the judiciary, systemic poverty, etc.
Likewise, a case could be made that patriarchy is the primary oppression. One percent of the world’s land is titled to women. Rape is the least prosecuted crime. If you want to do crime, but don’t want to do time, one should be a rapist.
Class too is monstrously oppressive, with far less movement between classes in America than one finds in other western nations.
I read today that neo-nazis are being elected in East Germany. A neo-nazi, the quintessential curdled white man, will hate you, Professor Zero, as much as me. In his eyes, you’re a mudman and I’m a monstrosity. And one can argue that fascism swells in America too, with millions of white men voting for Bush and company: and again, millions of those neocons hate me and they hate you too.
So, whereas I’d hate to argue against racism and its symptoms, such as slavery and systemic inequity, I think it’s also hard to argue against the holocaust and witch burning and purges and men owning 99% of the land. It’s all horrible. I can’t choose. Can you?
Holly: rationally, I can’t choose. I feel as though race were the primary oppression. This may be because I’ve been middle class for so long (several generations before my own birth) that I don’t feel class oppression, and because I’m in denial about my own gender oppression, so that what I notice is that I have race privilege, and I end up thinking race is the primary oppression.
I can’t really defend that, though, when one looks at statistics on class and gender. So once again, rationally, I can’t choose.
For some reason, though, of the choosers, I get along better with those who choose race. So many of those who choose gender first, are in such massive denial about race, and so many of those who choose class first, are in such massive denial about gender and race. I find that the race first people tend to have less denial about the other factors, so with that, plus my own subjective perception that race is first, I’d go with that group first … although, once again, I can’t logically or rationally isolate a single, primary oppression.
Yes, Nazis would hate me…Jewish relatives too close in. Maybe that’s another reason I subjectively feel race is the one.
Professor, there was a Harvard professor who wrote a book 10/20 years back: he argued that race would wane as the primary oppression and be replaced by class. He recently wrote another book and recanted that hypothesis. He placed race as the primary oppression. And I read an article in The Atlantic Monthly about 10 years back: its author argued that race is primary and that class is a disingenuous way to discuss race.
Professor, it’s interesting and persuasive why you align with folks who place race first. I too prefer folks whose assumptions haven’t calcified into truisms.